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	<title>Comments on: Will Jewish team be kept out of mock trial championship?</title>
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	<description>Maria Saporta is a longtime Atlanta business, civic and urban affairs journalist with a deep knowledge of our city, our region and state.</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-698</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 14:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-698</guid>
		<description>Wednesday, May 20, 2009
Letter: Mock trial ranking system fundamentally flawed
By Jeff Kosowsky

Regarding &quot;Letter writer, not mock trial organizers, showed no grace&quot; (May 19): unfortunately, Larry Bakko, the decision support system coordinator for the National High School Mock Trial Championship (NHSMTC), continues to blow a combination of statistical fallacies, lies, and canards to impugn the performance of the Sabbath-observing high school team from Massachusetts rather than graciously conceding a successful accommodation welcomed by the vast majority of students, coaches and observers.

As a Harvard Ph.D. in Applied Mathematics, I am shocked by Mr. Bakko&#039;s stunning lack of knowledge of elementary statistics. In the following analysis, it is important to note that Massachusetts was one round ahead of the other teams due to the Sabbath accommodation.

Lets begin with round one. Mr. Bakko claims &quot;They [Massachusetts] faced a limited risk, since many teams were still in flight to Atlanta and were not available to create the same pool of competitors.&quot; As any first year statistics student knows, sampling from a random subset (those who arrived early) is equivalent to sampling from the entire pool since there is no reason to assume that those teams with earlier flights were any better or worse on average than teams with later flights. Hence, the first round assignment was statistically fair.

Now for round two. Since Massachusetts lost round one, ideally it would have been matched against another team that lost round one. Instead, Massachusetts faced a randomly selected team from the entire pool including 20 teams that went on to win the first round. In fact, the team they played went on to win their first two rounds and ended up ranking higher. Disadvantage Massachusetts.

Turning to round three. Since by now Massachusetts had lost two rounds, it was appropriate to match with another team that lost the first two rounds. Instead, since Massachusetts was one round ahead, it was matched against a team that had lost only one round. Since half of these first round losing teams go on to win the second round, Massachusetts actually risked being matched with a stronger team than it deserved. Disadvantage Massachusetts.

Finally, round four. Since the Massachusetts record was now 1-2, the closest match was either a weak 1-1 team or a strong 0-2 team. Instead, Mr. Bakko chose a relatively strong 1-0 team who won all 3 ballots on their first round. Disadvantage Massachusetts.

The fact that this fourth round team was the Georgia-B team or that it didn&#039;t play all the rounds is a canard. The host state runner-up is only invited to participate (as in this case) when there exists an odd number of teams in a round and has no intrinsic &quot;right&quot; to compete in the tournament. In fact, had Massachusetts not participated, the Georgia-B team would not have not competed at all. 

Finally, given that Georgia had won the national championships for the past two years, it is disingenuous to claim that the runner-up state team is necessarily weaker than other participants.

The above analysis clearly proves that contrary to Mr. Bakko&#039;s assertions, the first round was statistically fair while the last three rounds if anything statistically disadvantaged Massachusetts. 

Now what about Mr. Bakko&#039;s claim that one of Massachusetts&#039; wins was against a school that ended up ranking #34 or that Maine, which also ranked #20, played a tougher schedule? Here Mr. Bakko enters into the fallacy of retrospective analysis in a system that prospectively matches teams based on the results of prior rounds. 

Indeed, Mr. Bakko now treads on very dangerous grounds since a retrospective analysis of the complete 2009 Power Matching system reveals intrinsic flaws in the rankings that are far more severe than the purported &quot;anomalies&quot; attributed to Sabbath accommodation. For example: 

- Louisiana ranked #7 yet lost to #18 and then beat #29, #37, and #22. Indeed, two of the three teams it beat won only one round.

Based on these match-ups, it can be argued that Louisiana merits no higher ranking than #19. 

- Similarly, #14 ranked Arizona never beat a team better than #34 (out of 40), yet Mr. Bakko complains that Massachusetts which at #20 beat the higher ranked #33 should be asterisked for facing a weak schedule.

- Finally, #5 ranked Nevada beat #35 and #15, lost to #12 and then beat #21, yet was ranked higher than #12 Kentucky, who beat them head-to-head while only losing to near top-ranked #4. In fact, a total of 7 teams were ranked at least 5 places *lower* than a team they beat head-to-head.

The truth is that it is mathematically impossible to create a matching system that after a mere 4 rounds results in a statistically significant complete ordinal ranking of all teams. Claiming the contrary would be equivalent to saying that one could schedule a football season of just 4 games and not just determine the Super Bowl winner but also delineate the precise ranking of all other 31 teams.

Unfortunately, the NHSMTC Power Matching system suffers from even more significant flaws in that the rankings are based purely on raw win-loss, ballot, and point totals. There is no retrospective normalization of these raw scores to reflect the vastly different strength of opponents, the relative generosity of different judging panels in awarding points, the randomness of assignments within a round (particularly the first round) or even the logically conflicting results of direct head-to-head match-ups. 

As a result of this analysis, I modify my previous claim to say that the NHSMTC organizers lack not only grace but also statistical aptitude.

Jeff Kosowsky

Newton, MA

The writer is the father of a Mock Trial participant from Massachusetts</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wednesday, May 20, 2009<br />
Letter: Mock trial ranking system fundamentally flawed<br />
By Jeff Kosowsky</p>
<p>Regarding &#8220;Letter writer, not mock trial organizers, showed no grace&#8221; (May 19): unfortunately, Larry Bakko, the decision support system coordinator for the National High School Mock Trial Championship (NHSMTC), continues to blow a combination of statistical fallacies, lies, and canards to impugn the performance of the Sabbath-observing high school team from Massachusetts rather than graciously conceding a successful accommodation welcomed by the vast majority of students, coaches and observers.</p>
<p>As a Harvard Ph.D. in Applied Mathematics, I am shocked by Mr. Bakko&#8217;s stunning lack of knowledge of elementary statistics. In the following analysis, it is important to note that Massachusetts was one round ahead of the other teams due to the Sabbath accommodation.</p>
<p>Lets begin with round one. Mr. Bakko claims &#8220;They [Massachusetts] faced a limited risk, since many teams were still in flight to Atlanta and were not available to create the same pool of competitors.&#8221; As any first year statistics student knows, sampling from a random subset (those who arrived early) is equivalent to sampling from the entire pool since there is no reason to assume that those teams with earlier flights were any better or worse on average than teams with later flights. Hence, the first round assignment was statistically fair.</p>
<p>Now for round two. Since Massachusetts lost round one, ideally it would have been matched against another team that lost round one. Instead, Massachusetts faced a randomly selected team from the entire pool including 20 teams that went on to win the first round. In fact, the team they played went on to win their first two rounds and ended up ranking higher. Disadvantage Massachusetts.</p>
<p>Turning to round three. Since by now Massachusetts had lost two rounds, it was appropriate to match with another team that lost the first two rounds. Instead, since Massachusetts was one round ahead, it was matched against a team that had lost only one round. Since half of these first round losing teams go on to win the second round, Massachusetts actually risked being matched with a stronger team than it deserved. Disadvantage Massachusetts.</p>
<p>Finally, round four. Since the Massachusetts record was now 1-2, the closest match was either a weak 1-1 team or a strong 0-2 team. Instead, Mr. Bakko chose a relatively strong 1-0 team who won all 3 ballots on their first round. Disadvantage Massachusetts.</p>
<p>The fact that this fourth round team was the Georgia-B team or that it didn&#8217;t play all the rounds is a canard. The host state runner-up is only invited to participate (as in this case) when there exists an odd number of teams in a round and has no intrinsic &#8220;right&#8221; to compete in the tournament. In fact, had Massachusetts not participated, the Georgia-B team would not have not competed at all. </p>
<p>Finally, given that Georgia had won the national championships for the past two years, it is disingenuous to claim that the runner-up state team is necessarily weaker than other participants.</p>
<p>The above analysis clearly proves that contrary to Mr. Bakko&#8217;s assertions, the first round was statistically fair while the last three rounds if anything statistically disadvantaged Massachusetts. </p>
<p>Now what about Mr. Bakko&#8217;s claim that one of Massachusetts&#8217; wins was against a school that ended up ranking #34 or that Maine, which also ranked #20, played a tougher schedule? Here Mr. Bakko enters into the fallacy of retrospective analysis in a system that prospectively matches teams based on the results of prior rounds. </p>
<p>Indeed, Mr. Bakko now treads on very dangerous grounds since a retrospective analysis of the complete 2009 Power Matching system reveals intrinsic flaws in the rankings that are far more severe than the purported &#8220;anomalies&#8221; attributed to Sabbath accommodation. For example: </p>
<p>- Louisiana ranked #7 yet lost to #18 and then beat #29, #37, and #22. Indeed, two of the three teams it beat won only one round.</p>
<p>Based on these match-ups, it can be argued that Louisiana merits no higher ranking than #19. </p>
<p>- Similarly, #14 ranked Arizona never beat a team better than #34 (out of 40), yet Mr. Bakko complains that Massachusetts which at #20 beat the higher ranked #33 should be asterisked for facing a weak schedule.</p>
<p>- Finally, #5 ranked Nevada beat #35 and #15, lost to #12 and then beat #21, yet was ranked higher than #12 Kentucky, who beat them head-to-head while only losing to near top-ranked #4. In fact, a total of 7 teams were ranked at least 5 places *lower* than a team they beat head-to-head.</p>
<p>The truth is that it is mathematically impossible to create a matching system that after a mere 4 rounds results in a statistically significant complete ordinal ranking of all teams. Claiming the contrary would be equivalent to saying that one could schedule a football season of just 4 games and not just determine the Super Bowl winner but also delineate the precise ranking of all other 31 teams.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the NHSMTC Power Matching system suffers from even more significant flaws in that the rankings are based purely on raw win-loss, ballot, and point totals. There is no retrospective normalization of these raw scores to reflect the vastly different strength of opponents, the relative generosity of different judging panels in awarding points, the randomness of assignments within a round (particularly the first round) or even the logically conflicting results of direct head-to-head match-ups. </p>
<p>As a result of this analysis, I modify my previous claim to say that the NHSMTC organizers lack not only grace but also statistical aptitude.</p>
<p>Jeff Kosowsky</p>
<p>Newton, MA</p>
<p>The writer is the father of a Mock Trial participant from Massachusetts</p>
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		<title>By: Justice</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-663</link>
		<dc:creator>Justice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 11:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-663</guid>
		<description>Mock trial team wins merely by competing
By Eric Fingerhut 
May 12, 2009 


The Maimonides School mock trial team split its four trials in national competition in Atlanta after a battle just to compete. (courtesy Maimondes team) WASHINGTON (JTA) -- The record book will say that the Maimonides School finished 20th out of 40 teams at the National High School Mock Trial Championship in Atlanta, winning two trials and losing two.

But that doesn&#039;t include the team&#039;s huge victory even before last weekend&#039;s competition had started allowing the suburban Boston Jewish day school just to participate.

After repeatedly rejecting requests to alter the tournament schedule so the Maimonides team would not have to compete on Shabbat, tournament officials were finally forced to relent less than two days before the competition began thanks to a small group of determined activists working 20 hours a day over the past few weeks -- as well as a Maimonides team that was prepared to forfeit its chance at a championship rather than compromise its beliefs.

“You always wonder what&#039;s going to happen if religiousness gets in the way” of something you want to do, said team co-captain Michael Kosowsky, 17. But “we weren&#039;t talking at all about violating Shabbat. We were pretty strong in our principles.”

“This educates the public,” said fellow co-captain Leah Sarna, 17. “Shabbat is not at all voluntary and not something you can compromise on.”

The 27-member Maimonides team, of which eight competed last weekend, learned about the Shabbat conflict in early April, not long after it won the Massachusetts state mock trial championship qualifying them for the national event.

Maimonides hoped that instead of having to compete in the customary two trials on Friday and two trials on Saturday, the mock trial organization would make an exception for the school and move its Saturday trials to Thursday, when all the competitors already are in attendance and practicing at the competition site, or add additional trials for Maimonides on Friday.

The organization argued that altering the schedule affected the fairness of the competition because matchups in later rounds are determined by the results from earlier rounds. The results, its officials said, cannot be utilized properly if Maimonides is participating in its fourth trial while nearly all the other squads have participated in only two.

There was precedent for the request: In 2005, the local sponsoring organization for the competition, the North Carolina Trial Lawyers Association, made a similar rescheduling to accommodate a New Jersey Jewish day school, the Torah Academy of Bergen County. Pressured by the lawyers&#039; group, the mock trial organization acquiesced after initially refusing the request, then passed a resolution saying it would not allow similar accommodations for Sabbath observers in the future.

As a result of that decision, the New Jersey and North Carolina mock trial groups resigned from the national organization and formed their own group that does not hold competitions on Shabbat.

So Jeff Kosowsky, Michael&#039;s father, and Daniel Edelman, a Maimonides alumnus who was familiar with the issue because his wife is an English teacher at the Torah Academy of Bergen County, enlisted Washington lawyers Nathan and Alyza Lewin, who specialize in religious discrimination cases.

Working pro bono, the Lewins got the Justice Department to issue a letter to the administrator of the Georgia courts, warning that entities that receive federal funds cannot administer programs which discriminate on the basis of religion. The competition was scheduled to be held in the Fulton County Courthouse, which receives federal funds.

The Lewins, Kosowsky and Edelman also tried to convince the local host sponsor, the Georgia Bar Association, to take action, but the assocation said that while it was sympathetic, claimed its contract with the national mock trial organization tied its hands.

The Maimonides&#039; backers also alerted the media, with articles appearing on the situation in a major Atlanta legal publication and The New York Times.

It worked.

On May 6, after one member of the Georgia Bar had resigned in protest, Fulton County Superior Court Chief Judge Doris Downs told event organizers that they would not be able to use the Fulton County Courthouse for the competition unless they made accommodations for the Maimonides team. The organizers then decided to schedule a Thursday trial and three Friday trials for the Bostonians.

Michael Kosowsky said the three trials on Friday were “a little tiring,” but the team was pleased where it finished, considering it was its first trip to the national championship.

The schedule change was popular among the other teams in Atlanta, as well.

Michael Kosowsky said that on the day the Maimonides team arrived, a number of competitors noticed their kipot and told them, “We&#039;re really hopeful you get the accommodations.”

The other teams were “very, very supportive,” Sarna said. “It really meant a lot to us.”

Both said it made perfect sense that their fellow mock trial competitors would be so interested in their plight.

“It&#039;s a competition about the legal system,” Sarna said. “They&#039;re the type of people who would care about this.”

Those involved in the mock trial effort say they hope that the mock trial organization will make a permanent Shabbat accommodation policy, either by changing the days of the week that the tournament is held or, minimally, having a rescheduling option when Sabbath observers -- Jewish or Muslim -- qualify for the competition.

The mock trial group doesn&#039;t appear ready to change: On its Web site, the 20th-place finish of Maimonides is accompanied by an asterisk that notes the team&#039;s “deviation from typical team advancement.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mock trial team wins merely by competing<br />
By Eric Fingerhut<br />
May 12, 2009 </p>
<p>The Maimonides School mock trial team split its four trials in national competition in Atlanta after a battle just to compete. (courtesy Maimondes team) WASHINGTON (JTA) &#8212; The record book will say that the Maimonides School finished 20th out of 40 teams at the National High School Mock Trial Championship in Atlanta, winning two trials and losing two.</p>
<p>But that doesn&#8217;t include the team&#8217;s huge victory even before last weekend&#8217;s competition had started allowing the suburban Boston Jewish day school just to participate.</p>
<p>After repeatedly rejecting requests to alter the tournament schedule so the Maimonides team would not have to compete on Shabbat, tournament officials were finally forced to relent less than two days before the competition began thanks to a small group of determined activists working 20 hours a day over the past few weeks &#8212; as well as a Maimonides team that was prepared to forfeit its chance at a championship rather than compromise its beliefs.</p>
<p>“You always wonder what&#8217;s going to happen if religiousness gets in the way” of something you want to do, said team co-captain Michael Kosowsky, 17. But “we weren&#8217;t talking at all about violating Shabbat. We were pretty strong in our principles.”</p>
<p>“This educates the public,” said fellow co-captain Leah Sarna, 17. “Shabbat is not at all voluntary and not something you can compromise on.”</p>
<p>The 27-member Maimonides team, of which eight competed last weekend, learned about the Shabbat conflict in early April, not long after it won the Massachusetts state mock trial championship qualifying them for the national event.</p>
<p>Maimonides hoped that instead of having to compete in the customary two trials on Friday and two trials on Saturday, the mock trial organization would make an exception for the school and move its Saturday trials to Thursday, when all the competitors already are in attendance and practicing at the competition site, or add additional trials for Maimonides on Friday.</p>
<p>The organization argued that altering the schedule affected the fairness of the competition because matchups in later rounds are determined by the results from earlier rounds. The results, its officials said, cannot be utilized properly if Maimonides is participating in its fourth trial while nearly all the other squads have participated in only two.</p>
<p>There was precedent for the request: In 2005, the local sponsoring organization for the competition, the North Carolina Trial Lawyers Association, made a similar rescheduling to accommodate a New Jersey Jewish day school, the Torah Academy of Bergen County. Pressured by the lawyers&#8217; group, the mock trial organization acquiesced after initially refusing the request, then passed a resolution saying it would not allow similar accommodations for Sabbath observers in the future.</p>
<p>As a result of that decision, the New Jersey and North Carolina mock trial groups resigned from the national organization and formed their own group that does not hold competitions on Shabbat.</p>
<p>So Jeff Kosowsky, Michael&#8217;s father, and Daniel Edelman, a Maimonides alumnus who was familiar with the issue because his wife is an English teacher at the Torah Academy of Bergen County, enlisted Washington lawyers Nathan and Alyza Lewin, who specialize in religious discrimination cases.</p>
<p>Working pro bono, the Lewins got the Justice Department to issue a letter to the administrator of the Georgia courts, warning that entities that receive federal funds cannot administer programs which discriminate on the basis of religion. The competition was scheduled to be held in the Fulton County Courthouse, which receives federal funds.</p>
<p>The Lewins, Kosowsky and Edelman also tried to convince the local host sponsor, the Georgia Bar Association, to take action, but the assocation said that while it was sympathetic, claimed its contract with the national mock trial organization tied its hands.</p>
<p>The Maimonides&#8217; backers also alerted the media, with articles appearing on the situation in a major Atlanta legal publication and The New York Times.</p>
<p>It worked.</p>
<p>On May 6, after one member of the Georgia Bar had resigned in protest, Fulton County Superior Court Chief Judge Doris Downs told event organizers that they would not be able to use the Fulton County Courthouse for the competition unless they made accommodations for the Maimonides team. The organizers then decided to schedule a Thursday trial and three Friday trials for the Bostonians.</p>
<p>Michael Kosowsky said the three trials on Friday were “a little tiring,” but the team was pleased where it finished, considering it was its first trip to the national championship.</p>
<p>The schedule change was popular among the other teams in Atlanta, as well.</p>
<p>Michael Kosowsky said that on the day the Maimonides team arrived, a number of competitors noticed their kipot and told them, “We&#8217;re really hopeful you get the accommodations.”</p>
<p>The other teams were “very, very supportive,” Sarna said. “It really meant a lot to us.”</p>
<p>Both said it made perfect sense that their fellow mock trial competitors would be so interested in their plight.</p>
<p>“It&#8217;s a competition about the legal system,” Sarna said. “They&#8217;re the type of people who would care about this.”</p>
<p>Those involved in the mock trial effort say they hope that the mock trial organization will make a permanent Shabbat accommodation policy, either by changing the days of the week that the tournament is held or, minimally, having a rescheduling option when Sabbath observers &#8212; Jewish or Muslim &#8212; qualify for the competition.</p>
<p>The mock trial group doesn&#8217;t appear ready to change: On its Web site, the 20th-place finish of Maimonides is accompanied by an asterisk that notes the team&#8217;s “deviation from typical team advancement.”</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-595</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 21:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-595</guid>
		<description>Knock it off with the unfair advantage baloney.  The findings in 2005 were that the accommodation did not affect the competition.  In fact, TABC (the recipient of the accommodation) came in 38th that year out of 44 teams.  Hard to argue that they were given an unfair advantage.  Granted, Maimonides School has very smart students and its likely a lot of schools are scared of it.  But put up the toughest competition.  Just don&#039;t exclude them because they are religiously proscribed from competting on the seventh day of the week.  There once was a time when Jews were could not get jobs in this country because they could not work on God&#039;s Day.  Let&#039;s not go back to those barbaric days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knock it off with the unfair advantage baloney.  The findings in 2005 were that the accommodation did not affect the competition.  In fact, TABC (the recipient of the accommodation) came in 38th that year out of 44 teams.  Hard to argue that they were given an unfair advantage.  Granted, Maimonides School has very smart students and its likely a lot of schools are scared of it.  But put up the toughest competition.  Just don&#8217;t exclude them because they are religiously proscribed from competting on the seventh day of the week.  There once was a time when Jews were could not get jobs in this country because they could not work on God&#8217;s Day.  Let&#8217;s not go back to those barbaric days.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-593</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 20:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-593</guid>
		<description>No Thats not what your asking for. Your asking for them to recieve an unfair advantage by matching them against a team that hasn&#039;t been seeded. Thats unfair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Thats not what your asking for. Your asking for them to recieve an unfair advantage by matching them against a team that hasn&#8217;t been seeded. Thats unfair.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-591</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 03:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-591</guid>
		<description>Gerald, no one is forcing or encoraging others to observer the Jewish Sabbath.  All that is being asked is for the national mock trial to move two of over 150 trials from Saturday to Thursday night and/or Friday so that the Massachusetts state champions will not be coerced into forfeiting or else abandoingin their religious principles.  Not much to ask for don&#039;t you think!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerald, no one is forcing or encoraging others to observer the Jewish Sabbath.  All that is being asked is for the national mock trial to move two of over 150 trials from Saturday to Thursday night and/or Friday so that the Massachusetts state champions will not be coerced into forfeiting or else abandoingin their religious principles.  Not much to ask for don&#8217;t you think!</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-590</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 02:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-590</guid>
		<description>Hmmm ... if this school is allowed to compete, then will Christians be allowed to display Christian symbols i.e. nativity scenes, crosses, etc. on public property again? Will we be allowed to change &quot;spring break&quot; back to &quot;Easter break?&quot; Will Christmas and Easter pageants be allowed to return to public schools?

Do you want freedom of religious observance and expression? Or do you want to force others to make accommodations for your religion that you are unwilling to make yourself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm &#8230; if this school is allowed to compete, then will Christians be allowed to display Christian symbols i.e. nativity scenes, crosses, etc. on public property again? Will we be allowed to change &#8220;spring break&#8221; back to &#8220;Easter break?&#8221; Will Christmas and Easter pageants be allowed to return to public schools?</p>
<p>Do you want freedom of religious observance and expression? Or do you want to force others to make accommodations for your religion that you are unwilling to make yourself?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-554</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 22:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-554</guid>
		<description>Anon 4:33:  As you state, the only basis for your argument of not allowing for a modification of two trials out of 150, is the the schedule &quot;is the way it always is.&quot;  Gee, I wonder where this country would be if we maintained an attitude like that when it came to race and religion.  Let&#039;s think:

There was a time in this country in which there was slavery: &quot;it was the way it always was.&quot;  There was a time in this country in which black people were not allowed to vote: &quot;it was the way it always was.&quot;  There was a time when black people could not drink from the same water fountains or sit in the same parts of the bus as whites: &quot;it was the way it always was.&quot;  There was a time when Jews and black could not live in certain neighborhoods: &quot;it was the way it always was.&quot;  There was a time when Jews and blacks could not attend certain universities or get certain jobs: &quot;it was the way it always was.&quot;  

Since you claim to be a high school student who is participating in the mock trial competition, I hope your coach can impress upon you that the values of our constition are a helluva a lot more important than who wins the competition.

My sense though is you don&#039;t want Maimonides to compete because you are afraid they will whip your pants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon 4:33:  As you state, the only basis for your argument of not allowing for a modification of two trials out of 150, is the the schedule &#8220;is the way it always is.&#8221;  Gee, I wonder where this country would be if we maintained an attitude like that when it came to race and religion.  Let&#8217;s think:</p>
<p>There was a time in this country in which there was slavery: &#8220;it was the way it always was.&#8221;  There was a time in this country in which black people were not allowed to vote: &#8220;it was the way it always was.&#8221;  There was a time when black people could not drink from the same water fountains or sit in the same parts of the bus as whites: &#8220;it was the way it always was.&#8221;  There was a time when Jews and black could not live in certain neighborhoods: &#8220;it was the way it always was.&#8221;  There was a time when Jews and blacks could not attend certain universities or get certain jobs: &#8220;it was the way it always was.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Since you claim to be a high school student who is participating in the mock trial competition, I hope your coach can impress upon you that the values of our constition are a helluva a lot more important than who wins the competition.</p>
<p>My sense though is you don&#8217;t want Maimonides to compete because you are afraid they will whip your pants.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-553</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 21:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-553</guid>
		<description>Response to post number 4:
First, every mock trial member knows what happens at nationals, basically because it happens year after year, and in almost every state.  I too know about what happened in 2005, they were given an unfair advantage by not going against power matched teams.  They ended up in 38th place, which means they went 1-3 or 2-2 at most. Had they been power matched like other teams, they might have done better or worse.

Every student going to Nationals, or with the hope to, knows that they will have to compete on a Friday and a Saturday, it is the way it always is.  I would be furious if a team who never got power matched took a top 10 honors( one of the highest accomplishments in mock trial).  As a student competing in a few days, I am happy with the NHSMTC&#039;s decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Response to post number 4:<br />
First, every mock trial member knows what happens at nationals, basically because it happens year after year, and in almost every state.  I too know about what happened in 2005, they were given an unfair advantage by not going against power matched teams.  They ended up in 38th place, which means they went 1-3 or 2-2 at most. Had they been power matched like other teams, they might have done better or worse.</p>
<p>Every student going to Nationals, or with the hope to, knows that they will have to compete on a Friday and a Saturday, it is the way it always is.  I would be furious if a team who never got power matched took a top 10 honors( one of the highest accomplishments in mock trial).  As a student competing in a few days, I am happy with the NHSMTC&#8217;s decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-550</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 17:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-550</guid>
		<description>Anon. 11:56 a.m.:  Let me see if I got this right.  You are &quot;a mock trial team member about to compete,&quot; which means you are at most 18 years old and yet you know that &quot;[i]n the second round in 2005 [when you were at most 14 years old], the New Jersey team should have faced a power-matched opponent. . . &quot;  Might I ask -- where did you get the information about what opponents the New Jersey team faced in 2005.

As a &quot;mock trial team member about to compete,&quot; you must be a very talented student who may one day become influential perhaps even in the law.  I hope and pray you learn to appreciate that our constitution values freedom of religion very much and that accommodations for religion are made all the time.  I hope you can see that the rescehduling of two trials out of over 150 so that worthy students can participate in the competition is something that falls within the spirit and meaning of the legal system you are fortunate to be learning about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon. 11:56 a.m.:  Let me see if I got this right.  You are &#8220;a mock trial team member about to compete,&#8221; which means you are at most 18 years old and yet you know that &#8220;[i]n the second round in 2005 [when you were at most 14 years old], the New Jersey team should have faced a power-matched opponent. . . &#8221;  Might I ask &#8212; where did you get the information about what opponents the New Jersey team faced in 2005.</p>
<p>As a &#8220;mock trial team member about to compete,&#8221; you must be a very talented student who may one day become influential perhaps even in the law.  I hope and pray you learn to appreciate that our constitution values freedom of religion very much and that accommodations for religion are made all the time.  I hope you can see that the rescehduling of two trials out of over 150 so that worthy students can participate in the competition is something that falls within the spirit and meaning of the legal system you are fortunate to be learning about.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://saportareport.com/blog/2009/05/will-jewish-team-be-frozen-out-of-mock-trial-championship/comment-page-1/#comment-549</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 16:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=718#comment-549</guid>
		<description>I am a mock trial team member about to compete and I completely understand and agree with their decision not to reschedule.  Its not about discrimination at all its about unfairness.  In the second round in 2005, the New Jersey team should have faced a power-matched opponent, but this was impossible since no other teams had yet competed. The same thing would happen if this team competed on thursday instead of friday.  It would give them a completely unfair advantage by possible placing them in a second round against a team that wasn&#039;t seeded.  Teams at nationals are put in a winners or losers bracket after each round.  This would throw that off and be unfair to teams like mine, especially when mock trial is extremely subjective in its scoring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a mock trial team member about to compete and I completely understand and agree with their decision not to reschedule.  Its not about discrimination at all its about unfairness.  In the second round in 2005, the New Jersey team should have faced a power-matched opponent, but this was impossible since no other teams had yet competed. The same thing would happen if this team competed on thursday instead of friday.  It would give them a completely unfair advantage by possible placing them in a second round against a team that wasn&#8217;t seeded.  Teams at nationals are put in a winners or losers bracket after each round.  This would throw that off and be unfair to teams like mine, especially when mock trial is extremely subjective in its scoring.</p>
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