Comments on: Georgia in midst of transit crisis; stabilization needed; state leaders look the other way http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/ Maria Saporta is a longtime Atlanta business, civic and urban affairs journalist with a deep knowledge of our city, our region and state. Wed, 23 May 2012 09:02:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Yr1215 http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3811 Yr1215 Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:18:41 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3811 ACC - yes, I understand. The Southeast doesn't have the density or local transit infrastructure the northeast has, and the density that does exist is spread over a larger geographic region (increasing the transit costs). But there probably is enough density to support the beginning of a system. At minimum, you would hope the states would start acquiring the right of way (where new routes are needed) for future use while land is cheaper. Oh well. ACC – yes, I understand. The Southeast doesn’t have the density or local transit infrastructure the northeast has, and the density that does exist is spread over a larger geographic region (increasing the transit costs). But there probably is enough density to support the beginning of a system. At minimum, you would hope the states would start acquiring the right of way (where new routes are needed) for future use while land is cheaper.

Oh well.

]]> By: ACC 12 Booster http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3809 ACC 12 Booster Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:50:23 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3809 Yr1215: Keep-in-mind though that the number of 198 people-per-square mile is an average that is driven down because of a larger total land area to figure into for the Southeast than the Northeast states (the Southeastern states have more land area and, therefore, less density, than Northeast states), but most of the area's (NC, SC, GA, FL) population is still concentrated in population centers mainly along I-85 in the Piedmont (Raleigh-Durham, Greensboro, Charlotte, Greenville-Spartanburg, Atlanta) and in a few key urban areas in Florida (Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa Bay Area, Miami), though not as densely or tightly packed as the I-95 Northeastern Corridor. Yr1215: Keep-in-mind though that the number of 198 people-per-square mile is an average that is driven down because of a larger total land area to figure into for the Southeast than the Northeast states (the Southeastern states have more land area and, therefore, less density, than Northeast states), but most of the area’s (NC, SC, GA, FL) population is still concentrated in population centers mainly along I-85 in the Piedmont (Raleigh-Durham, Greensboro, Charlotte, Greenville-Spartanburg, Atlanta) and in a few key urban areas in Florida (Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa Bay Area, Miami), though not as densely or tightly packed as the I-95 Northeastern Corridor.

]]> By: Yr1215 http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3806 Yr1215 Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:22:08 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3806 Here's some general data for train buffs. The "east coast" of the US has roughly the same population density as France. Of course, this is heavily weighted to the Northeast. But even the Southeastern coastal states sport a density of 198 people/sqm versus France's 297 p/sqm. Of course neither come close to Germany's 595 p/sqm. Just food for thought. Here’s some general data for train buffs. The “east coast” of the US has roughly the same population density as France. Of course, this is heavily weighted to the Northeast. But even the Southeastern coastal states sport a density of 198 people/sqm versus France’s 297 p/sqm. Of course neither come close to Germany’s 595 p/sqm.

Just food for thought.

]]> By: ACC 12 Booster http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3787 ACC 12 Booster Sat, 20 Feb 2010 02:22:53 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3787 Maria: Thanks for the compliments. Yr1215: I agree with your points about taking a balanced approach to investing in infrastructure improvement, like both railways and roadways, but weighted more in favor of railways. I also highly agree with your point that a mass transit agency, like MARTA, should be designed to be a little more "market-based" and appeal to a wider audience of riders rather than being designed to be only "needs-based" as a politically-motivated means of "last-resort" transportation for those who have no other option of getting around. I also agree with you that Georgia needs to start investing heavily in its infrastructure again as it is losing ground to places like Texas and especially North Carolina, and Florida. Almost all new highway construction in Texas these days is to build toll roads, because as you stated earlier, toll roads are capable of funding their own construction and operation. In addition to planning and investment in rail, the same about new road construction holds even truer for Florida as they have a toll road complex that probably more concentrated than anywhere else in the nation. I also agree with you and have seen rock solid proof that North Carolina is kicking our butt in infrastructure investment as NC has invested loyally in rail for years and continues to invest loyally in rail especially in the I-85/Piedmont Corridor and has been upgrading its interstate network and is looking to build toll roads in targeted areas in the future. In addition to investing heavily in road and rail infrastructure with an eye towards the future, North Carolina also invests very heavily in EDUCATION as the state has an excellent system of community colleges that is designed to feed into their exceptional network of public and private universities, but that's a spirited discussion for another blog (any ideas Maria?). North Carolina's heavy investment in infrastructure of all kinds, but especially roads, rails and most importantly, "book-learnin'" (education) poses a real threat to Georgia's still kinda-elevated status as a supposedly leading Southeastern state. Maria: Thanks for the compliments.

Yr1215: I agree with your points about taking a balanced approach to investing in infrastructure improvement, like both railways and roadways, but weighted more in favor of railways. I also highly agree with your point that a mass transit agency, like MARTA, should be designed to be a little more “market-based” and appeal to a wider audience of riders rather than being designed to be only “needs-based” as a politically-motivated means of “last-resort” transportation for those who have no other option of getting around.

I also agree with you that Georgia needs to start investing heavily in its infrastructure again as it is losing ground to places like Texas and especially North Carolina, and Florida. Almost all new highway construction in Texas these days is to build toll roads, because as you stated earlier, toll roads are capable of funding their own construction and operation. In addition to planning and investment in rail, the same about new road construction holds even truer for Florida as they have a toll road complex that probably more concentrated than anywhere else in the nation.

I also agree with you and have seen rock solid proof that North Carolina is kicking our butt in infrastructure investment as NC has invested loyally in rail for years and continues to invest loyally in rail especially in the I-85/Piedmont Corridor and has been upgrading its interstate network and is looking to build toll roads in targeted areas in the future. In addition to investing heavily in road and rail infrastructure with an eye towards the future, North Carolina also invests very heavily in EDUCATION as the state has an excellent system of community colleges that is designed to feed into their exceptional network of public and private universities, but that’s a spirited discussion for another blog (any ideas Maria?). North Carolina’s heavy investment in infrastructure of all kinds, but especially roads, rails and most importantly, “book-learnin’” (education) poses a real threat to Georgia’s still kinda-elevated status as a supposedly leading Southeastern state.

]]> By: Maria Saporta http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3786 Maria Saporta Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:57:46 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3786 My dear SaportaReport readers: What a fabulous discussion and conversation about transportation, transit and what we need to do to get our act together. In reading the evolution of these posts, it strikes me that there truly is a great amount of consensus among most of you. For the most part, y'all have given valid arguments for your different points of view, and most of the time, there has been a healthy exchange of ideas and information. The only times I have cringed has been when someone attacks someone else in a personal way, calling them names or being dismissive of what they're saying. The readers of this site are mature and sophisticated enough to focus on the issues and present their/our best case for why we feel the way we do. I certainly could continue my arguments by saying that yes, all transportation modes are subsidized, so we as a community must decide which mode(s) help us become the city, region and state we want to be. Transportation investments, by necessity and design, are long term, so we can't be thinking about what we need today, but what we will need 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from now. Also, trying to pit the city against the state (and vice versa) is ludicrous. The Atlanta region helps generate more than half of the state's revenues, so of course the state should reinvest in our region. And then there are 120 transit agencies across the state that are all in need of support. It all comes back to the fact that we are facing a transit crisis, and we need to come up with ways to help us through this extremely difficult time. That said, thank you all for sharing your thoughts and helping make SaportaReport a true town hall of information, opinions and ideas. I truly believe our discussion can lead to finding sound solutions. You're the best. Maria My dear SaportaReport readers: What a fabulous discussion and conversation about transportation, transit and what we need to do to get our act together. In reading the evolution of these posts, it strikes me that there truly is a great amount of consensus among most of you. For the most part, y’all have given valid arguments for your different points of view, and most of the time, there has been a healthy exchange of ideas and information. The only times I have cringed has been when someone attacks someone else in a personal way, calling them names or being dismissive of what they’re saying. The readers of this site are mature and sophisticated enough to focus on the issues and present their/our best case for why we feel the way we do. I certainly could continue my arguments by saying that yes, all transportation modes are subsidized, so we as a community must decide which mode(s) help us become the city, region and state we want to be. Transportation investments, by necessity and design, are long term, so we can’t be thinking about what we need today, but what we will need 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from now. Also, trying to pit the city against the state (and vice versa) is ludicrous. The Atlanta region helps generate more than half of the state’s revenues, so of course the state should reinvest in our region. And then there are 120 transit agencies across the state that are all in need of support. It all comes back to the fact that we are facing a transit crisis, and we need to come up with ways to help us through this extremely difficult time. That said, thank you all for sharing your thoughts and helping make SaportaReport a true town hall of information, opinions and ideas. I truly believe our discussion can lead to finding sound solutions. You’re the best. Maria

]]> By: Yr1215 http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3785 Yr1215 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:51:46 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3785 Skeptic, I believe you may have read my previous posts through your paradigm, or lens, that says one is only pro-roads (or pro-transit). I can be pro-transit and for sound fiscal management. They're not contradictions. And in fact, I'm both pro-roads (toll roads anyway) and pro-transit. We need more trains, but not everyone is going to ride a train. Therefore, we probably need more roads, preferably of a toll nature (which provides funding for their construction as well as an incentive to get out of the car and take a train). What Georgia needs more than anything is some infrastructure investment of all types (and certainly heavily weighted to new train infrastructure). We're getting our rears kicked by NC. What I'm not for is wasteful spending, whether on roads to nowhere, or empty buses. One would hope that's a universal value, but in fact it is not. MARTA has long been designed to be "needs-based" rather than "market based" (ie to serve a market with sufficient demand) because it is a political rather than profit oriented organization. This is an inherent flaw, of sorts. I would probably prefer a public-private partnership in an ideal world. An organization that receives the subsidy, but operates on a loss minimization plan. In the reality in which we exist, this will never happen. So the recession and revenue reductions will hopefully help MARTA right-size their operations relative to their incoming revenue. Unless someone writes them a blank check. Enough - I need to go enjoy the weather as well. Skeptic, I believe you may have read my previous posts through your paradigm, or lens, that says one is only pro-roads (or pro-transit). I can be pro-transit and for sound fiscal management. They’re not contradictions.

And in fact, I’m both pro-roads (toll roads anyway) and pro-transit. We need more trains, but not everyone is going to ride a train. Therefore, we probably need more roads, preferably of a toll nature (which provides funding for their construction as well as an incentive to get out of the car and take a train).

What Georgia needs more than anything is some infrastructure investment of all types (and certainly heavily weighted to new train infrastructure). We’re getting our rears kicked by NC. What I’m not for is wasteful spending, whether on roads to nowhere, or empty buses. One would hope that’s a universal value, but in fact it is not.

MARTA has long been designed to be “needs-based” rather than “market based” (ie to serve a market with sufficient demand) because it is a political rather than profit oriented organization. This is an inherent flaw, of sorts. I would probably prefer a public-private partnership in an ideal world. An organization that receives the subsidy, but operates on a loss minimization plan. In the reality in which we exist, this will never happen. So the recession and revenue reductions will hopefully help MARTA right-size their operations relative to their incoming revenue. Unless someone writes them a blank check.

Enough – I need to go enjoy the weather as well.

]]> By: professional skeptic http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3784 professional skeptic Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:28:55 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3784 By the way Yr1215: you should never think it's a waste of time to clarify your points or to correct someone you believe has made an inaccurate statement, especially when the topic at hand is so important. From what I initially read, I believed you to be an anti-transit, roads-are-the-only-answer activist, and you clarified that for me. If we ever get too carried away or too far off point, I think Maria will step in and moderate. By the way Yr1215: you should never think it’s a waste of time to clarify your points or to correct someone you believe has made an inaccurate statement, especially when the topic at hand is so important.

From what I initially read, I believed you to be an anti-transit, roads-are-the-only-answer activist, and you clarified that for me.

If we ever get too carried away or too far off point, I think Maria will step in and moderate.

]]> By: professional skeptic http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3783 professional skeptic Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:10:00 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3783 Yr1215: I'll forgive your blogging typo. Make tons of 'em myself. I'm a tax accountant, not an English professor. My concerns don't revolve around blind love of anything, but rather the enormous, senseless, politically motivated inequity that has existed for decades between road building and transit funding in this state. Perhaps the newly proposed transit funding legislation will make a difference: http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/02/19/proposed-transportation-bill-actually-looks-promising/ Now, if you don't mind, I think I'll enjoy what I hope will be a sunny weekend, before I commit myself to the loony bin. Yr1215: I’ll forgive your blogging typo. Make tons of ‘em myself. I’m a tax accountant, not an English professor.

My concerns don’t revolve around blind love of anything, but rather the enormous, senseless, politically motivated inequity that has existed for decades between road building and transit funding in this state.

Perhaps the newly proposed transit funding legislation will make a difference:

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/02/19/proposed-transportation-bill-actually-looks-promising/

Now, if you don’t mind, I think I’ll enjoy what I hope will be a sunny weekend, before I commit myself to the loony bin.

]]> By: Yr1215 http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3781 Yr1215 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:32:31 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3781 Typo in second to last sentence. Replace "You're" with "Your". Blogs aren't the best medium for correcting typos. Typo in second to last sentence. Replace “You’re” with “Your”. Blogs aren’t the best medium for correcting typos.

]]> By: Yr1215 http://saportareport.com/blog/2010/02/georgia-in-midst-of-transit-crisis-while-state-leaders-look-the-other-way/comment-page-1/#comment-3780 Yr1215 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:43:52 +0000 http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3227#comment-3780 professional skeptic - you're insane. who would take the time to write such an inane, long, and devoid of content post? i can't believe i'm taking the time to rebut you point by point. 1. Fiscal mismanagement at GDOT doesn't excuse MARTA. I never said GDOT was well run. You still don't address the fact that MARTA is already massively subsidized, I have conceded that is fine, I would only like them to "break even" with the massive subsidy they have. 2. I don't care that all transit is subsidized. NO PROBLEM! Crike. It is the size of the subsidy that matters. Any transit analyst will tell you mass transit is the MOST subsidized form of transportation already. I still say OK. Fine, but stop piling on more subsidies. 3. Fine by me. I believe in toll roads for all new road expansion, but not existing roads. 4. Your analytical skills are really lacking here. 5. No one has publicly declared what the $300mm in bonds are for yet. If you somehow know, please enlighten us. 6. Roads get state support because the state gets the gas tax revenue idiot. I'm not saying it should all be used for roads, but that is why the state supports road building, because of the revenue source. You really are a moron. 7. No argument here. Check into an institution please. Your blind love of mass transit (and disregard for its shortcomings, and your blind hate of road building) is as stupid as the blind love of road building that generally (but not entirely) goes on at GDOT and the legislature (among those on the R-side of the aisle primarily). Use your brain. professional skeptic – you’re insane. who would take the time to write such an inane, long, and devoid of content post?

i can’t believe i’m taking the time to rebut you point by point.

1. Fiscal mismanagement at GDOT doesn’t excuse MARTA. I never said GDOT was well run. You still don’t address the fact that MARTA is already massively subsidized, I have conceded that is fine, I would only like them to “break even” with the massive subsidy they have.

2. I don’t care that all transit is subsidized. NO PROBLEM! Crike. It is the size of the subsidy that matters. Any transit analyst will tell you mass transit is the MOST subsidized form of transportation already. I still say OK. Fine, but stop piling on more subsidies.

3. Fine by me. I believe in toll roads for all new road expansion, but not existing roads.

4. Your analytical skills are really lacking here.

5. No one has publicly declared what the $300mm in bonds are for yet. If you somehow know, please enlighten us.

6. Roads get state support because the state gets the gas tax revenue idiot. I’m not saying it should all be used for roads, but that is why the state supports road building, because of the revenue source. You really are a moron.

7. No argument here.

Check into an institution please. Your blind love of mass transit (and disregard for its shortcomings, and your blind hate of road building) is as stupid as the blind love of road building that generally (but not entirely) goes on at GDOT and the legislature (among those on the R-side of the aisle primarily).

Use your brain.

]]>