Big decisions ahead for northwest corridor to Cobb — namely bus or rail

 @inatl  @ScottNAtlanta

 Areas at the urban core, like that of Fulton and DeKalb counties that are served by MARTA have much different transit needs than that of suburban areas, even heavily-populated suburban areas like Clayton, Cobb and Gwinnett, and suburban counties with a more exurban feel like Cherokee and Henry.

Which is why the focus of MARTA should remain on Fulton and DeKalb counties and the transit priority for outlying suburban and exurban counties should be implementing regional commuter rail service on existing freight rail lines that stretch through historic suburban railroad towns as well as a few key targeted extensions of the popular express commuter bus service where commuter rail implementation and expansion is not necessarily possible.  

 @inatl  @ScottNAtlanta

 When it comes to rail transit, MARTA often gets the bulk of the blame that should be assigned to this state's top down neglect and outright incompetent mismanagement of transportation issues in general as many people blame MARTA for not playing a larger role in relieving traffic congestion throughout the entire metro area and/or region.

Though Boston is the most notable exception, urban heavy rail transit-anchored systems like MARTA and regional commuter rail networks are not usually managed by the same agency.

In most major metros, local heavy rail-anchored transit networks are managed by an agency that is under the control of at least one or two local counties within the urban core of a region while regional commuter rail networks are usually managed by an agency that is under the control of the region or the state which why I often snicker when I hear OTPers desperate for traffic relief propose to expand MARTA out into surrounding counties to perform the functions that a currently non-existent regional commuter rail network should be performing.

It would probably be wise for MARTA to concentrate on providing and upgrading service in Fulton and DeKalb counties where people care about its well-being the most while leaving rail and bus transit service in outlying counties to the state and the locals in those areas.

 @ScottNAtlanta  @inatl

 How can GDOT be effective in implementing, expanding and upgrading rail transit options if they can't even perform the simplest of operational or maintenance tasks on the roads because they've been mismanaged by the politicians under the Gold Dome and have been guided by rogue elements into expending a huge amount of time and resources into projects that have turned out to be wildly unpopular?

 @ScottNAtlanta  @inatl

Adding greatly to the overall ineptness of GDOT over the last couple of decades is all of the time, energy and resources that the agency has expended on proposals that in the end turned out to be so unpopular that they were either eventually totally abandoned by state politicians (like the ill-fated Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc bypass proposal which aided in the defeat of Governor Roy Barnes and the Democrats a decade ago after extreme resistance to the roadbuilding proposal from the public) or have been dramatically downplayed in some way, shape or form (like the proposed $16 billion HOT lanes network which, while it is still proposed to be built on limited sections of the freeway system like I-75 NW and I-75 South, has been quieted as a major strategy after the outrage the ill-effects on I-85 NE traffic that the HOT lanes have had on that very busy road).

Transportation in most major cities is a partnership between the locals and the state which wants to make sure that its leading city and economic engine remains viable and able to function, but in this state GDOT has spent so much time and attention, first on the Northern Arc (which GDOT continued to work on until 2008, five years after the state had officially cancelled the entire project in 2003 and had made it abundantly clear that the state politicians in the Gold Dome had completely abandoned the Northern Arc as part of their overall transportation "strategy" out of an intense fear of angry voters) and then on HOT lanes at the expense of the obvious viable transportation alternatives such as rail transit or even improving long-neglected inadequate surface arterial routes.

 @ScottNAtlanta  @inatl

 The biggest problem that I've noticed with MARTA and transportation in the Atlanta Region in general has been a glaring lack of leadership from state government.

That lack of leadership on urban transportation issues in Metro Atlanta shouldn't really be in the least bit surprising seeing as though how the state has mismanaged the Georgia Department of Transportation almost completely into the ground where even the simplest of administrative or operational tasks (like accounting and routine road maintenance) seems to have become an almost insurmountable chore...(like the $430 million in invoices that GDOT had lost in a desk, or the $1 billion in funds that GDOT had just found that the agency didn't know it had even lost or the 20 years it took to complete the 85-316 project which had been on the books since shortly after Gwinnett Place Mall opened back in the 1980's, or how GDOT had so many projects on the books as "insisted upon favors" to self-serving state politicians that it didn't know which ones it was supposed to actually be working on and so on and so on...).

 @inatl well...in all fairness, there was a little mishandling of MARTA funds decades ago which will be used to eternity against it (in the Bill Campbell years go figure).  As far as association with poverty, you dont see the same thing in Charlotte, or Denver, or Dallas.  Sure there are people against it, but there is also a sense of accomplishment in those places.  To some extent there is some pride here when big projects get completed...but you have to get them built first and there is no appetite for that unfortunately

 @ScottNAtlanta  @The Last Democrat in Georgia Think its more than poverty.  More like stereotypes.   You could substitute a number of terms, like Atlanta, for MARTA in The Last Dem's comment though perhaps not limit it to poverty.

People buy in to the political games where its become popular to bash everything that is the Democratic areas of DeKalb, Fulton and Atlanta.  I don't want to inject race into it but in the background it at least helps people believe the false narrative. 

I mean everyone believes MARTA is inefficient and even corrupt.  Yet the statistics comparing MARTA to other transit agencies demonstrates they have one of the best financial operating ratios around in terms of cost per passenger mile - and that's with an underutilized system thanks in part to perception and in part due to poor regional land use planning/development decisions.

 @The Last Democrat in Georgia The biggest problem here (and I've never seen this anywhere else) is that people associate MARTA with poverty and want nothing to do with it.  There is no regional pride in the MARTA system only contempt for this very reason

 @ScottNAtlanta

 The name of this little theory is called "Agenda 21".

Yes.  Mass transit-centered planning is part of a third-world international conspiracy to overthrow the highly-armed U.S. Government and replace it with a shadow government controlled by the unarmed and feckless United Nations.

 @ScottNAtlanta

 Paranoia.  They think that mass transit and the walkable transit-friendly communities that can pop-up around transit lines and transit stations is part of an international conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. Government, the one with the world's most powerful military and all of the most-advanced guns and weapons and stuff, and replace it with a shadow government run by the United Nations...You know, the same United Nations with no guns that sends its so-called peacemaking "troops" over to war zones unarmed so that they can be chased around by some of the world's most infamous, and armed-to-the-teeth, war criminals.

 @The Last Democrat in Georgia  @ScottNAtlanta Yes but now is the time to put that lane in or take away a lane since much of the traffic will be removed and they are doing the heavy construction now.   Though frankly its not going to be most of the traffic, just some of it.

Anyway that's what the beltline is doing, as they install the multi use trail they use the heavy equipment to level and prepare the area where a street car or light rail might one day go.  Which in some instances has been more difficult than anticipated due to unidentified sewer pipes or hazardous materials.  

But thankfully they are doing it now when its easier to get access and the equipment is there.   Which is what they should be doing at Sidney Marcus.

And btw they should narrow Cheshirebridge at Lenox/Buford Highway to make it more pedestrian friendly for those getting off the bus on Buford Highway and seeking to walk to the shopping and residential area at Lavista.   Right now its a very dangerous walk.

 @inatl  @ScottNAtlanta

 Keep-in-mind that the amount of congestion in the vicinity of Buford Hwy and Lenox & Cheshire Bridge Rds and on Sidney Marcus will be significantly lessened after the construction of the new ramps between Hwy 400 and I-85 are complete, making an increased transit option on Buford Highway, much more viable and convenient.

Most of the traffic that will be taken off of Buford Highway and Sidney Marcus Blvd will be expressway traffic that will never have to return to that traditionally gridlocked section of the road grid, meaning that travel between Buford Highway and the Lindbergh MARTA Station, via Sidney Marcus, will be much easier.

Also because BRT usually has lanes with their own dedicated right-of-way, as ScottNAtlanta pointed out, BRT buses often get their own dedicated traffic signals with their own dedicated green light phases, making it easier for those buses to get through very busy intersections, which in the case of Buford Hwy BRT would be major intersections at Shallowford Rd, Chamblee-Tucker Rd, Clairmont Road, North Druid Hills Road and, especially, busy intersections at Lenox/Cheshire Bridge Roads and Sidney Marcus Boulevard.

 @ScottNAtlanta  @The Last Democrat in Georgia  Yea but we won't see BRT anytime soon on Buford Highway - the only corridor in Metro Atlanta with Public Transit buses and Private transit vans because ridership is so high.   

Heck even though they are redoing the Sidney Marcus/85/400 intersection I don't believe they are taking steps to provide a congestion free route for these vans and buses.  Which is a shame because frankly this is the only bottleneck for the buses going from the Lindberg MARTA station to points north on Buford Highway.

 @inatl  

What could have been can very much still be when it comes to the Atlanta Region's potential for a comprehensive rail transit network.

As evidenced by this region's under-utilization of MARTA, our current rail transit network functions at only a mere fraction of what it has the potential to be.

Even with all of the more than abundant existing freight rail infrastructure, the Atlanta Region is the largest metropolitan area east of the Mississippi River without regional commuter rail service, despite the explosive population growth and resulting extreme traffic jams on major freeway spokes that the area has experienced with great frequency over the last three decades.

 @inatl  

With some notable exceptions, like the future MARTA rail transit line to and from Emory University between the existing MARTA North/Northeast Line (Red/Gold Line) and the MARTA East Line (Blue Line), securing future right-of-way for rail transit expansions shouldn't really be too much of a problem because of the all of the existing freight rail right-of-way that exists around the entire region in abundance. 

 @ScottNAtlanta Its frustrating to think what could have been had the region protected Right of Way for Rail. 

Actually my hats of to the City of Atlanta for the fact they are protecting the ROW via the Beltline.     They are going in getting the land and putting in the trail and as I understanding prepping the land for later light rail along the trail.   The trail and park loop alone is spurring the development that will provide ridership.  And the ROW is being protected so its costs don't go up with the increased development.  

This is one reason why while I like the money the Beltline is getting from the TSPLOST things will still be fine for the Beltline if TSPLOST gets voted down.

 @inatl not only do they confuse the names, but they confuse everyone else.  You can construct BRT to be exactly like rail...just on wheels.  Its like a rail half way point because you've aquired the ROW thus have a dedicated lane that is separate from traffic (vastly decreasing trip times), which is at least half the cost...and later if traffic verifies you can spend the other cost of the rails...it spreads out your cost, verifies need, and provides a real transit alternative.  The problem is, you mention bus and people think of a bus thats stuck in traffic just like everyone else

 @ScottNAtlanta Understood.  I used to really champion BRT, but its hard to these days because many officials are quick to play games with the names.  And what we end up with is merely "enhanced transit service" which does little to demonstrate how good transit to the suburbs can be

 @inatl

Here are some links to information about Nashville's outer bypass, Tennessee State Route 840:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_State_Route_840

http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/sr840s/default.htm

Another problem with TN 840 is that it was built with existing state transportation funds when the road should have likely been built as a toll road to minimize the use of limited state transportation funds that could have been used on badly-needed projects elsewhere.

 @ScottNAtlanta

 Here's an example of a busy CSX right-of-way in the Northeast outside of Washington D.C. in Maryland that is shared with a high-frequency MARC commuter rail line and 10, that's right, TEN Amtrak lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_Line

If CSX can share one of its very busy freight rail right-of-ways with high-frequency commuter rail service and TEN Amtrak lines in the Northeast, then surely it can share its Western & Atlantic line with just mere commuter rail service in Northwest Georgia between Atlanta and Chattanooga.

The state already actually has plans to eventually someday implement commuter rail service on the Western & Atlantic and the Georgia Northeastern rail lines, it's just that no one has likely made any serious overtures to CSX about proceeding forward with it, which shouldn't be in the least bit surprising given how increasingly inept (and just plain goofy and out-and-out downright INCOMPETENT) the state has been when it comes to matters of transportation infrastructure as of late.

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/travelingingeorgia/rail/Documents/CommuterRailMap.pdf

CSX and NS already are already well aware that if they operate in a highly-populated state with a major population center they will more than likely be asked to share their often very busy freight rail right-of-ways and tracks with commuter rail passenger trains.  

Georgia has not been the rule, but rather has been and remains very much the exception in this case when it comes to a highly-populated state being in critical need of the use of busy freight rail right-of-ways for regional commuter rail service to relive intense peak hour traffic congestion and gridlock pressure from busy spoke interstates and freeways. 

 @ScottNAtlanta

 Even though the freight railroads (in this case, CSX and Norfolk Southern) may not necessarily be all that enthusiastic about the prospect of sharing their tracks with commuter rail lines, the freight rail lines are still very well aware that they do not exist in a vacuum.

Very busy freight rail right-of-ways are shared with high-frequency commuter rail lines and in many cases, high-frequency Amtrak lines, in major metro areas all over the continent, Atlanta should be no different, especially as though it has some of the worst traffic congestion on the continent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America#List_of_North_American_commuter_rail_operators

Here in Georgia, between the South Carolina and Alabama state lines, Norfolk Southern shares its freight rail right-of-way with the Amtrak Crescent that operates between New Orleans and NYC (which, I know, is not the most robust example of a freight rail line sharing its right-of-way seeing as though the Crescent only runs through Georgia about twice a day, but it is the only example here in Georgia at the moment).

The most robust examples of freight rail and passenger rail shared right-of-ways lie in and around the Chicago area and, of course, the Northeastern U.S. between Washington D.C. and Boston.

 @ScottNAtlanta

 Seeing as though Metro Atlanta and the Interstate 75-anchored Northwest Corridor were experiencing very explosive growth in population and development at the time, in hindsight, the allowances for frequent commuter rail service on the Western & Atlantic right-of-way should have been negotiated at the time that the current lease with CSX was signed back in 1986.

Negotiating allowances for the frequent commuter rail service that has become increasingly necessary as the area has continued to grow in an almost exponential fashion at times at the time the current lease with CSX was signed back in 1986 would have and should have been concurrent with the massive "Freeing-the-Freeways" widening project (a freeway widening project which has since become obsolete due in large part to the lack of strong alternative rail transit commuting options as the previously explosively-growing Atlanta Region more than doubled in size and population in the two-and-a-half decades since the project was completed). 

 @ScottNAtlanta

The current lease with CSX on the old Western & Atlantic right-of-way actually expires on December 31, 2019.  Hopefully the state won't wait until then to negotiate the necessary allowances for commuter rail service on those tracks, even though the state's well-documented history of inaction on passenger rail says that is a highly likely possibility.

 @ScottNAtlanta

Not too terribly much would have to be done to convince CSX to share the old Western & Atlantic right-of-way seeing as though the state owns the right-of-way and leases it out to CSX.

 http://www.dot.state.ga.us/maps/Documents/railroad/RAIL_MAP_SAMPLE.pdf

 @The Last Democrat in Georgia 

The problem with CSX corridors is that you have to get CSX to agree to share them, and on most active lines they have shown very little willingness to do that, and when they do the price is usually to high

 @inatl

 HOT Lanes on I-75/575 NW don't have much of a shot of being built if this T-SPLOST is voted down and it shouldn't be too much of a shocker that the T-SPLOST isn't too terribly popular with what has been a traditionally anti-tax, anti-government (anti-everthing?) populace in historically ultraconservative Cobb County.